Update (Disclaimer) 15 years later in 2025: This is an old post, written almost 15 years ago, but it links to another post which is of higher value to me, Are There Different Degrees of Sin? The Greater Sin of John 19:11 , so I chose to keep this post active. If you are coming here today, my posts now generally stay away from politics and almost completely concentrate on photography. For me this debate belongs in 2010 and I really have no interest in it today as I did back then.
Contrary to what the world says, views change and mature, and people do have the ability to evaluate their own heart. While I did write the post below in 2010, I would say looking back at my 2010 self, my heart has changed, in general, and a lot of what I wrote I would not write today (mainly because I loath politics and divisive topics now).
I have witnessed other people of faith be theologically correct while at the same time be very judgmental, harsh, and unloving, and that is not who I am or who I want to be today. Timothy calls for patience in 2 Timothy 4:2, and I think loving others through being very patient better describes what I write today.
2 Timothy 4:2 …be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. (ESV)
The links below are almost all broken links now, but I have kept the links the way they were in 2010 just to preserve where they pointed at the time.
Original Text on Prop 8
California’s “Prop 8” proves that same-sex relationships are acceptable to Christians and compatible with scripture. Of course this is utter ridiculousness, but, that severely flawed logic seems to be what is prevailing in our culture today. This topic, which I usually just tend to leave alone, is overpowering the news, blogs, and culture lately (and is certainly nothing new under the sun, gay’s have been trying to justify their actions for millennia, see Why is Being Gay a Sin? for a civil discussion, Does Romans 1:26 Condemn Lesbians? for the absurd justification, and then an honest “Christian Perspective”, not forgetting to throw in Anne Rice who recently “quit” Christianity on Facebook [comments in pdf,] with Mark Driscoll’s response for the Washington Post, because she didn’t want to be “anti-gay anymore”, and the countless trash talk about Proposition 8 in California).
With Proposition 8 being overturned by the California courts, this seems destined for the Supreme Court (where they probably don’t want to deal with it either). The Boston Globe did a huge photo spread called Same Sex Marriage about a week ago and the responses to that article show why this, unfortunately, is THE topic of our day for Christians and the church. This discussion really wasn’t intended to launch into whether being gay is a sin or not, but to show the absurd arguments on both sides, which lack any careful thought.
This comment below is typical when reading trash talk on the news sites, and was made by someone who used the title “I Feel Drawn Towards Christianity, But I’m Gay”, which then received very complimentary responses, with little question for the lifestyle itself, or with sound argument for or against Christians and the homosexual lifestyle, and what scripture has to say about it’s effects and consequences.
I was surprised in a few ways, one by how openly acceptable the Christian responses were to this person. Not that they were accepting of the person, that’s great, but accepting of all aspects of the persons lifestyle, with not much need for contemplation (although some did suggest the person generically seek God’s direction). The other surprise was how utterly weak the reasoning and arguments were that were used on both sides.
I am certainly no expert on this topic whatsoever, and there are many who can soundly argue, on both sides, but those seem to be few and far between. No gay person I talk to (and many Christians for that matter) can give a sound theological argument, backed and based on scripture (since this person “feels drawn to Christianity”). The majority of the arguments put forth are emotional arguments, which are impossible to argue against in a rational manner. This is the argument that was given in this particular case:
The Bible also condemns divorce, the eating of pork and shrimp, and says that men shouldn’t sit on the same chairs as women who are menstruating.
The argument seems to lack even a surface level study of scripture, but most Christians responded with nothing other than an emotional response. As with much of Scripture in our culture today, these verses are taken so much out of context for the use of the argument for a homosexual lifestyle I am surprised they were made? I am not being mean or hateful in spirit here, but seriously, if you are gay, this is your argument?
- The Bible condemns the eating of pork.
- We eat pork today.
- Therefore, homosexuality is ok in the sight of the Lord.
There are so many things that could be addressed but at the basic level, in Mark 7:18-19 Jesus declared all foods to be clean, he didn’t declare all forms of sex to be clean. A better argument that perhaps shows a little more clearly why scripture says that the homosexual lifestyle is sinful in God’s eyes (and there are many things that are actually still seen as sinful in God’s eyes today, besides homosexuality), would be:
Point 1 on Sin:
- The Bible says sin is detestable in God’s eye’s.
- Therefore any continuous sinful act is not honoring to God.
Point 2 on Marriage:
- The Bible defines sex outside of marriage as sin.
- The Bible defines marriage as a monogamous union between a man and a woman.
- Therefore any nonrepentant sexual relationship of any kind outside marriage is sin in God’s eyes.
- Therefore a nonrepentant homosexual lifestyle is sin.
- Therefore a nonrepentant adulterous relationship is sin.
- Therefore any sexual relationship before marriage is sin.
I rarely see those “hateful” Christians everyone seems to refer to today that will acknowledge that the last three are equally sin, and equally condemned by scripture, but, that doesn’t mean that either is less or more acceptable to God as a way to live that honor’s God. I do not say that in a hateful manner but in an examination of scripture. I also recognize that many, or most, “gay Christians” will take issues with my argument above and defend it away in some manner. The statements above are all based on scripture and can all be backed theologically with sound argument.
Our culture as a whole is continually refusing to see objective truths in the Bible today. Whether we like to ignore them in our day or not, they still exist, there are still things that God says are good, and those things God says are bad, we just seem to have so much knowledge in everything that we have no knowledge in the actual truth anymore.
61 responses to “Examining Christianity’s Stance on Same-Sex Relationships”
look at the same about slavery. in lev god says slavery is good. but under the new covenant slavery is an intolerable evil because its violation of the 2nd commmandment.
i still dont understand. why would believers chose to led by the law when, they now live under spirit(grace)and even if they obey the law they receive no salvation. why be led by what the spirit created when you can be led by the spirit itself.
scripture says the law has been weakened and is but a shadow. why be led a shadow when you can be led directly by the light.
John,
I fully understand, that all Christians should be lead by the Holy Spirit and should love one another accordingly, and I fully agree. Paul’s point; however, was that Christians in Rome, Galatia, and Corinth were not living in submission to Christ (the Master), nor lead by the Holy Spirit, nor manifesting a changed lifestyle. therefore, they were not living by the Spirit, or manifested the fruit of Spirit (i.e. self-control, faithfulness).
There is a difference in loving God and obeying God, and Jesus reminded people of the cost and price to follow Him. Love is awesome and love does cover a multitude of sins, but love does not save; only submission to Christ by denial of self and everything else, will produce a true love because nothing else is before Him.
The Greater is Christ, He alone is the One who gave His life, the Spirit is given to dwell with those (only) who submit and surrender to Him. The Spirit cannot be greater than Christ, since the trinity is God in three person, equal in nature, but submissive in duties. Just as Jesus was submissive to the father, the Spirit is submissive to Christ, but that does not take away from any of their nature or attributes.
“Love is awesome and love does cover a multitude of sins, but love does not save; only submission to Christ by denial of self and everything else, will produce a true love because nothing else is before Him.”
2cor7:7-10 says it is godly sorrow that leads us to repentance that leads to salvation. anything that is godly is about godlove.
again 1cor13 anything that is without love is nothing and gains nothing…………obedience to the law, confession, even repentance without love they are nothing.
yes if you love me you love you will obey……., but because one obeys a law does not mean they are doing it out of the love of christ. there are other reasons….pride, fear of retribution,etc.
no one comes to the father accept thru the son no one comes to the son unless the father draws him.
if god is love, what is there of god that is without love.
what can be done without christ that can be love?
“without me you can do nothing.”
if you are without me you are without my love. if it is without my love it is nothing and gains nothing.
there is no understanding of sin unless that understanding is of the love of first and second commandment…..the 2 together lived thru the love of the third.
10 Hear the word of the LORD,
you rulers of Sodom;
listen to the law of our God,
you people of Gomorrah!
11 “The multitude of your sacrificesโ
what are they to me?” says the LORD.
“I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
12 When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?
13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocationsโ
I cannot bear your evil assemblies.
14 Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts
my soul hates.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15 When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even if you offer many prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are full of blood;
16 wash and make yourselves clean.
Take your evil deeds
out of my sight!
Stop doing wrong,
17 learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed. [a]
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.
18 “Come now, let us reason together,”
says the LORD.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
they were guilty of violation of the 2nd commandment, which in comparison to obedience of regulation meant nothing. that was under the old covenant where as in deut 28 they had a relationship to god thru regulation. how much more is that true under the new, where relationship thru christ replaces the one of regulation.
col1:15 christ is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[f] your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusationโ 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
“Christians in Rome, Galatia, and Corinth were not living in submission to Christ (the Master), nor lead by the Holy Spirit, nor manifesting a changed lifestyle.”
any submission to christ is embracing the 2nd commandment. every embracing the first is embracing the 2nd. you cannot seperate them because they are all of the same spirit.
yet you are still unable to explain how the essence being homosexual violates anything other than your undwerstanding of regulation. you are still unable to explain how it comes against the love of the 2nd commandment and the fruits of the spirit of christ. if it comes against christ then it should definitely come against his fruits. murder, thievery, and adultery obviously does, why should homosexuality be any different?