Update (Disclaimer) 15 years later in 2025: This is an old post, written almost 15 years ago, but it links to another post which is of higher value to me, Are There Different Degrees of Sin? The Greater Sin of John 19:11 , so I chose to keep this post active. If you are coming here today, my posts now generally stay away from politics and almost completely concentrate on photography. For me this debate belongs in 2010 and I really have no interest in it today as I did back then.
Contrary to what the world says, views change and mature, and people do have the ability to evaluate their own heart. While I did write the post below in 2010, I would say looking back at my 2010 self, my heart has changed, in general, and a lot of what I wrote I would not write today (mainly because I loath politics and divisive topics now).
I have witnessed other people of faith be theologically correct while at the same time be very judgmental, harsh, and unloving, and that is not who I am or who I want to be today. Timothy calls for patience in 2 Timothy 4:2, and I think loving others through being very patient better describes what I write today.
2 Timothy 4:2 …be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. (ESV)
The links below are almost all broken links now, but I have kept the links the way they were in 2010 just to preserve where they pointed at the time.
Original Text on Prop 8
California’s “Prop 8” proves that same-sex relationships are acceptable to Christians and compatible with scripture. Of course this is utter ridiculousness, but, that severely flawed logic seems to be what is prevailing in our culture today. This topic, which I usually just tend to leave alone, is overpowering the news, blogs, and culture lately (and is certainly nothing new under the sun, gay’s have been trying to justify their actions for millennia, see Why is Being Gay a Sin? for a civil discussion, Does Romans 1:26 Condemn Lesbians? for the absurd justification, and then an honest “Christian Perspective”, not forgetting to throw in Anne Rice who recently “quit” Christianity on Facebook [comments in pdf,] with Mark Driscoll’s response for the Washington Post, because she didn’t want to be “anti-gay anymore”, and the countless trash talk about Proposition 8 in California).
With Proposition 8 being overturned by the California courts, this seems destined for the Supreme Court (where they probably don’t want to deal with it either). The Boston Globe did a huge photo spread called Same Sex Marriage about a week ago and the responses to that article show why this, unfortunately, is THE topic of our day for Christians and the church. This discussion really wasn’t intended to launch into whether being gay is a sin or not, but to show the absurd arguments on both sides, which lack any careful thought.
This comment below is typical when reading trash talk on the news sites, and was made by someone who used the title “I Feel Drawn Towards Christianity, But I’m Gay”, which then received very complimentary responses, with little question for the lifestyle itself, or with sound argument for or against Christians and the homosexual lifestyle, and what scripture has to say about it’s effects and consequences.
I was surprised in a few ways, one by how openly acceptable the Christian responses were to this person. Not that they were accepting of the person, that’s great, but accepting of all aspects of the persons lifestyle, with not much need for contemplation (although some did suggest the person generically seek God’s direction). The other surprise was how utterly weak the reasoning and arguments were that were used on both sides.
I am certainly no expert on this topic whatsoever, and there are many who can soundly argue, on both sides, but those seem to be few and far between. No gay person I talk to (and many Christians for that matter) can give a sound theological argument, backed and based on scripture (since this person “feels drawn to Christianity”). The majority of the arguments put forth are emotional arguments, which are impossible to argue against in a rational manner. This is the argument that was given in this particular case:
The Bible also condemns divorce, the eating of pork and shrimp, and says that men shouldn’t sit on the same chairs as women who are menstruating.
The argument seems to lack even a surface level study of scripture, but most Christians responded with nothing other than an emotional response. As with much of Scripture in our culture today, these verses are taken so much out of context for the use of the argument for a homosexual lifestyle I am surprised they were made? I am not being mean or hateful in spirit here, but seriously, if you are gay, this is your argument?
- The Bible condemns the eating of pork.
- We eat pork today.
- Therefore, homosexuality is ok in the sight of the Lord.
There are so many things that could be addressed but at the basic level, in Mark 7:18-19 Jesus declared all foods to be clean, he didn’t declare all forms of sex to be clean. A better argument that perhaps shows a little more clearly why scripture says that the homosexual lifestyle is sinful in God’s eyes (and there are many things that are actually still seen as sinful in God’s eyes today, besides homosexuality), would be:
Point 1 on Sin:
- The Bible says sin is detestable in God’s eye’s.
- Therefore any continuous sinful act is not honoring to God.
Point 2 on Marriage:
- The Bible defines sex outside of marriage as sin.
- The Bible defines marriage as a monogamous union between a man and a woman.
- Therefore any nonrepentant sexual relationship of any kind outside marriage is sin in God’s eyes.
- Therefore a nonrepentant homosexual lifestyle is sin.
- Therefore a nonrepentant adulterous relationship is sin.
- Therefore any sexual relationship before marriage is sin.
I rarely see those “hateful” Christians everyone seems to refer to today that will acknowledge that the last three are equally sin, and equally condemned by scripture, but, that doesn’t mean that either is less or more acceptable to God as a way to live that honor’s God. I do not say that in a hateful manner but in an examination of scripture. I also recognize that many, or most, “gay Christians” will take issues with my argument above and defend it away in some manner. The statements above are all based on scripture and can all be backed theologically with sound argument.
Our culture as a whole is continually refusing to see objective truths in the Bible today. Whether we like to ignore them in our day or not, they still exist, there are still things that God says are good, and those things God says are bad, we just seem to have so much knowledge in everything that we have no knowledge in the actual truth anymore.
61 responses to “Examining Christianity’s Stance on Same-Sex Relationships”
Ok, last one. You said: “if you are given over to the spirit of christ then your life is filled with the fruit of the holy spiritโฆโฆyes or no?”
I don’t want to split hairs here (as I would say one needs to submit and surrender to Christ, to be filled with the Holy Spirit and that means denial of self, denial of everything, and Him first, Luke 14:25-35), but to answer your question as you specifically asked.
It seems no. It is evident that Paul is speaking to people who know Jesus and have claimed to be followers, but do not have the fruit of the Spirit; they argue, backbite, commit fornication, get drunk, and revert back to their old lifestyles, claiming free grace (antinomianism).
You also asked,”the fruit of the spirit of christ is different from that of powers and principalities, the things of the flesh, and the world, because they are of a different spiritโฆ. yes or no?”
Answer: Surely the flesh is separate from the dark powers and principalities of this world (satanic). There needs to be a distinction between my own selfish, self-centered passions and lusts, then with what the devil really is doing. As well, the Holy Spirit is the steam in the engine (so to speak), He is not to go “toot, toot.” Therefore, the only way one knows that he/she is living by the Spirit is by submitting and surrendering to Christ, living in obedience to Him. Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15). There must be a denial of the flesh, a denial of self, a denial of what “we” think is right. I used to think I could get drunk and be filled with the Spirit, but that was only a self lie, a self justification, to promote my lifestyle. Deep down, I knew what I was doing was not right. And if I would not do something holding Jesus’ hand, then I know its wrong; meaning, (and here’s the key) whatever we do, would we do it if we were holding Jesus’ hand because if the Holy Spirit dwells within us, then we already are. Do I think Jesus would condone and smile at me and my wife, watching us being sexually intimate; yes I do because He gave me my wife and I always thank Him for a woman in love with Him. The reason I feel so re-assured is because His Word is thorough, continual, and immutable, but since Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, then if He wants to changes the Sabbath rules, he can, but the commandments as is, remain. We still live by the ten unconditional, but know that Christ has fulfilled the remaining 613 deeds attached.
the three commandments of love are greater than the ten because the three are about conviction of the heart. without lifting ones hand a believer can murder his brother in his heart. without even touching another woman a man can carry on a adulterous relationship with her in his heart.
to follow anything other than the three assumes love. but assuming love is not being led by it.
there are a million reasons to obey a law and none of them has to do with love.
again 1cor13 says anything without love is nothing and gains nothing.
surely every marriage in christ is about godlove. why would gay believers who marry not have the same. what does differences of physicalities have to do about spirit. physicality account for nothing.
Matthew 3:9
And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.
to say that thru regulations about physicalities is how we have a relationship to god, denies the one with the spirit that lives within us, it denies the importance of being led by godlove, and attempts to ressurrect the old covenant as in deut 28. what is there new about that. the old covenant has long since passed away.
[God] created them from the beginning [and] made them male and female,
there is no word ” only” in genesis and matthew 19. you are adding your own stroke, in spite of jesus’s words on the importance of each stroke. and hearing the word about marrying a woman is not about physicalities at birth because there have been those who were born without the equipment to have intercourse who still married.
just because something is not mentioned in scripture does not mean it is against god.
i am quoting you.
Accordingly, your use of the 2nd Commandment is eisegesis (taking Scripture out of context). Assuredly, God is love, and God is just; God must punish those who accept Him, and acknowledge that His only Son bore the full penalty of sin and was the propitiation of Godโs wrath on man, for that sin, and continue to habitually disregard the warnings He has given. The warning in Romans 1 declares that God gave those men and women up (gave them up to their reprobate minds) who had decided to not use their bodies according to the purpose that He created them, which was sexually immoral. Paul was certainly not talking about Godโs love, otherwise the covenant Jews had a higher โleg to stand onโ than the gentile because God would have loved them more. However, Paulโs argument comes to a divided church.