Update (Disclaimer) 15 years later in 2025: This is an old post, written almost 15 years ago, but it links to another post which is of higher value to me, Are There Different Degrees of Sin? The Greater Sin of John 19:11 , so I chose to keep this post active. If you are coming here today, my posts now generally stay away from politics and almost completely concentrate on photography. For me this debate belongs in 2010 and I really have no interest in it today as I did back then.
Contrary to what the world says, views change and mature, and people do have the ability to evaluate their own heart. While I did write the post below in 2010, I would say looking back at my 2010 self, my heart has changed, in general, and a lot of what I wrote I would not write today (mainly because I loath politics and divisive topics now).
I have witnessed other people of faith be theologically correct while at the same time be very judgmental, harsh, and unloving, and that is not who I am or who I want to be today. Timothy calls for patience in 2 Timothy 4:2, and I think loving others through being very patient better describes what I write today.
2 Timothy 4:2 …be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. (ESV)
The links below are almost all broken links now, but I have kept the links the way they were in 2010 just to preserve where they pointed at the time.
Original Text on Prop 8
California’s “Prop 8” proves that same-sex relationships are acceptable to Christians and compatible with scripture. Of course this is utter ridiculousness, but, that severely flawed logic seems to be what is prevailing in our culture today. This topic, which I usually just tend to leave alone, is overpowering the news, blogs, and culture lately (and is certainly nothing new under the sun, gay’s have been trying to justify their actions for millennia, see Why is Being Gay a Sin? for a civil discussion, Does Romans 1:26 Condemn Lesbians? for the absurd justification, and then an honest “Christian Perspective”, not forgetting to throw in Anne Rice who recently “quit” Christianity on Facebook [comments in pdf,] with Mark Driscoll’s response for the Washington Post, because she didn’t want to be “anti-gay anymore”, and the countless trash talk about Proposition 8 in California).
With Proposition 8 being overturned by the California courts, this seems destined for the Supreme Court (where they probably don’t want to deal with it either). The Boston Globe did a huge photo spread called Same Sex Marriage about a week ago and the responses to that article show why this, unfortunately, is THE topic of our day for Christians and the church. This discussion really wasn’t intended to launch into whether being gay is a sin or not, but to show the absurd arguments on both sides, which lack any careful thought.
This comment below is typical when reading trash talk on the news sites, and was made by someone who used the title “I Feel Drawn Towards Christianity, But I’m Gay”, which then received very complimentary responses, with little question for the lifestyle itself, or with sound argument for or against Christians and the homosexual lifestyle, and what scripture has to say about it’s effects and consequences.
I was surprised in a few ways, one by how openly acceptable the Christian responses were to this person. Not that they were accepting of the person, that’s great, but accepting of all aspects of the persons lifestyle, with not much need for contemplation (although some did suggest the person generically seek God’s direction). The other surprise was how utterly weak the reasoning and arguments were that were used on both sides.
I am certainly no expert on this topic whatsoever, and there are many who can soundly argue, on both sides, but those seem to be few and far between. No gay person I talk to (and many Christians for that matter) can give a sound theological argument, backed and based on scripture (since this person “feels drawn to Christianity”). The majority of the arguments put forth are emotional arguments, which are impossible to argue against in a rational manner. This is the argument that was given in this particular case:
The Bible also condemns divorce, the eating of pork and shrimp, and says that men shouldn’t sit on the same chairs as women who are menstruating.
The argument seems to lack even a surface level study of scripture, but most Christians responded with nothing other than an emotional response. As with much of Scripture in our culture today, these verses are taken so much out of context for the use of the argument for a homosexual lifestyle I am surprised they were made? I am not being mean or hateful in spirit here, but seriously, if you are gay, this is your argument?
- The Bible condemns the eating of pork.
- We eat pork today.
- Therefore, homosexuality is ok in the sight of the Lord.
There are so many things that could be addressed but at the basic level, in Mark 7:18-19 Jesus declared all foods to be clean, he didn’t declare all forms of sex to be clean. A better argument that perhaps shows a little more clearly why scripture says that the homosexual lifestyle is sinful in God’s eyes (and there are many things that are actually still seen as sinful in God’s eyes today, besides homosexuality), would be:
Point 1 on Sin:
- The Bible says sin is detestable in God’s eye’s.
- Therefore any continuous sinful act is not honoring to God.
Point 2 on Marriage:
- The Bible defines sex outside of marriage as sin.
- The Bible defines marriage as a monogamous union between a man and a woman.
- Therefore any nonrepentant sexual relationship of any kind outside marriage is sin in God’s eyes.
- Therefore a nonrepentant homosexual lifestyle is sin.
- Therefore a nonrepentant adulterous relationship is sin.
- Therefore any sexual relationship before marriage is sin.
I rarely see those “hateful” Christians everyone seems to refer to today that will acknowledge that the last three are equally sin, and equally condemned by scripture, but, that doesn’t mean that either is less or more acceptable to God as a way to live that honor’s God. I do not say that in a hateful manner but in an examination of scripture. I also recognize that many, or most, “gay Christians” will take issues with my argument above and defend it away in some manner. The statements above are all based on scripture and can all be backed theologically with sound argument.
Our culture as a whole is continually refusing to see objective truths in the Bible today. Whether we like to ignore them in our day or not, they still exist, there are still things that God says are good, and those things God says are bad, we just seem to have so much knowledge in everything that we have no knowledge in the actual truth anymore.
61 responses to “Examining Christianity’s Stance on Same-Sex Relationships”
Jesus defines ALL sin as lack of love (Matthew 22:36-40). Do you see unlove in homosexual relationships? Who is unloved in this consentual coupling? Who is hurt and ready for a lawsuit?
(Incidentally, I’d like to see some Bible references to your litany of sins in Point 2.)
To simply answer the question raised in the previous post, God is unloved in a homosexual relationship. He asked that it not be done, therefore by doing it is not showing love to Him.
” which are wrong in god’s sight” are you as a believer claiming to know the mind of god? scripture would disagree with you, believers seeing in part thru a poor reflection darkly.
the 2nd commmandment, love your neighbor as yourself……again, the summation of all new covenant law. under the new covenant the law is to make believers “conscious” of NOT,NOT,NOT loving their neighbors as themselves
@Fred
as love is an attribute of God, an attribute that comes from God, the “love” of that type of relationship is a manipulated version of the love that God intends, much in the same way that two people engaged in adultery can be “in love” and while both sides (the consenting couple as you put it) would say they are a loving couple, it is not the love spoken about in Matthew 22:36-40.
Even if one could make a theological argument that this is the love being referred to in the case of adultery or homosexuality, this command by Jesus never overrides sin. You cannot be fulfilling Matthew 22:36-40 by being in a homosexual relationship, or say that being gay is fulfilling Matthew 22:36-40, that is not a sound argument. This is the same logic that people use to justify killing an abortion doctor. Killing the abortion doctor is murder (sin) but nothing justifies the action by saying “God told me to sin” or whatever excuse might be made. Sin is sin.
As far as my references for Point 2, I specifically left those off on purpose. As I stated in the post, anyone bent on not seeing the displayed proposition would not be swayed by specific scriptural references, and will use each one completely out of context to prove their own point. A contextual reading of scripture shows all points in proposition 2 above to be true, and keeping scripture within it’s own context is very important to having a firm understanding of it’s teaching.
I am sure you are well aware of the scriptural arguments, but if you must, see:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 :: Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:12-17 :: Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, The two will become one flesh. 17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.
Hebrews 13:4 :: Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.
…… I can go on and list several others but that’s not really the point. A good point for Christians to ask other Christian might be why are they so adamant about pointing out sin in other people’s lives instead of looking at the sin in their own lives, which to me is quite valid, but so far, no one is willing to admit that the continuous unrepentant homosexual lifestyle is sin. And when no one can admit that a gay lifestyle is sin, I am not sure what their answer for 1 Corinthians 6 is.
If God calls an act something that will prevent an unrepentant person from entering the kingdom of heaven, that sounds pretty serious to me, like, sin perhaps.
@john
when something is “wrong in God’s sight” scripture says as much, I don’t have to claim to know God’s mind, which I don’t and scripture says I can’t, but I can know it’s teachings through the revealed Word, and scripture says things are evil in God’s eyes, it also says there are certain things that God “hates”, and repeating those statements is not a claim to know the mind of God, it is repeating what God has already said.
Your “summation” of the new covenant does not refer to sinful acts, love wrongfully contrived does not justify sin by saying everything under the sun is now acceptable if it is counted as an act of “love” as seen how I want to see it.
“it is repeating what God has already said.” and all that listening, hearing, and reading (of teachings) is done thru seeing(understanding) in part thru a poor reflection darkly.
that why each has his own understanding, which may or may not be god’s understanding.
you say you see in scripture that homosexuality is a sin. i see it no where.
romans 1: they exchanged the truth of god’s love(god is love) for a lie and worshipped and served the created (powers and principalities……the things that christ said we were to battle against) and were given over to the things that served them……..shameful lust. they abandoned the natural those things that brought and exuded the fruit of the spirit of galatians, that brought them peace, for that which did not and brought them no peace. the due penalty self hatred and self loathing.
homosexuals have never had women or intended to have women their entire lives since their earliest sexual memory. they cannot abandon what they have never had nor never intended to have.
homosexuals do not bond out of “shameful lust” but instead in the same way as heterosexuals out mutual love, respect, devotion, affection,and trust for a shared committed life together. and those believing homosexuals that marry, their marriages are filled with the fruit of the spirit in the way as those of believing heterosexuals.
the legal gay marriages in massachussetts have not descended into the 50% divorce rate as the heterosexuals that were married at the same time.