Update (Disclaimer) 15 years later in 2025: This is an old post, written almost 15 years ago, but it links to another post which is of higher value to me, Are There Different Degrees of Sin? The Greater Sin of John 19:11 , so I chose to keep this post active. If you are coming here today, my posts now generally stay away from politics and almost completely concentrate on photography. For me this debate belongs in 2010 and I really have no interest in it today as I did back then.
Contrary to what the world says, views change and mature, and people do have the ability to evaluate their own heart. While I did write the post below in 2010, I would say looking back at my 2010 self, my heart has changed, in general, and a lot of what I wrote I would not write today (mainly because I loath politics and divisive topics now).
I have witnessed other people of faith be theologically correct while at the same time be very judgmental, harsh, and unloving, and that is not who I am or who I want to be today. Timothy calls for patience in 2 Timothy 4:2, and I think loving others through being very patient better describes what I write today.
2 Timothy 4:2 …be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. (ESV)
The links below are almost all broken links now, but I have kept the links the way they were in 2010 just to preserve where they pointed at the time.
Original Text on Prop 8
California’s “Prop 8” proves that same-sex relationships are acceptable to Christians and compatible with scripture. Of course this is utter ridiculousness, but, that severely flawed logic seems to be what is prevailing in our culture today. This topic, which I usually just tend to leave alone, is overpowering the news, blogs, and culture lately (and is certainly nothing new under the sun, gay’s have been trying to justify their actions for millennia, see Why is Being Gay a Sin? for a civil discussion, Does Romans 1:26 Condemn Lesbians? for the absurd justification, and then an honest “Christian Perspective”, not forgetting to throw in Anne Rice who recently “quit” Christianity on Facebook [comments in pdf,] with Mark Driscoll’s response for the Washington Post, because she didn’t want to be “anti-gay anymore”, and the countless trash talk about Proposition 8 in California).
With Proposition 8 being overturned by the California courts, this seems destined for the Supreme Court (where they probably don’t want to deal with it either). The Boston Globe did a huge photo spread called Same Sex Marriage about a week ago and the responses to that article show why this, unfortunately, is THE topic of our day for Christians and the church. This discussion really wasn’t intended to launch into whether being gay is a sin or not, but to show the absurd arguments on both sides, which lack any careful thought.
This comment below is typical when reading trash talk on the news sites, and was made by someone who used the title “I Feel Drawn Towards Christianity, But I’m Gay”, which then received very complimentary responses, with little question for the lifestyle itself, or with sound argument for or against Christians and the homosexual lifestyle, and what scripture has to say about it’s effects and consequences.
I was surprised in a few ways, one by how openly acceptable the Christian responses were to this person. Not that they were accepting of the person, that’s great, but accepting of all aspects of the persons lifestyle, with not much need for contemplation (although some did suggest the person generically seek God’s direction). The other surprise was how utterly weak the reasoning and arguments were that were used on both sides.
I am certainly no expert on this topic whatsoever, and there are many who can soundly argue, on both sides, but those seem to be few and far between. No gay person I talk to (and many Christians for that matter) can give a sound theological argument, backed and based on scripture (since this person “feels drawn to Christianity”). The majority of the arguments put forth are emotional arguments, which are impossible to argue against in a rational manner. This is the argument that was given in this particular case:
The Bible also condemns divorce, the eating of pork and shrimp, and says that men shouldn’t sit on the same chairs as women who are menstruating.
The argument seems to lack even a surface level study of scripture, but most Christians responded with nothing other than an emotional response. As with much of Scripture in our culture today, these verses are taken so much out of context for the use of the argument for a homosexual lifestyle I am surprised they were made? I am not being mean or hateful in spirit here, but seriously, if you are gay, this is your argument?
- The Bible condemns the eating of pork.
- We eat pork today.
- Therefore, homosexuality is ok in the sight of the Lord.
There are so many things that could be addressed but at the basic level, in Mark 7:18-19 Jesus declared all foods to be clean, he didn’t declare all forms of sex to be clean. A better argument that perhaps shows a little more clearly why scripture says that the homosexual lifestyle is sinful in God’s eyes (and there are many things that are actually still seen as sinful in God’s eyes today, besides homosexuality), would be:
Point 1 on Sin:
- The Bible says sin is detestable in God’s eye’s.
- Therefore any continuous sinful act is not honoring to God.
Point 2 on Marriage:
- The Bible defines sex outside of marriage as sin.
- The Bible defines marriage as a monogamous union between a man and a woman.
- Therefore any nonrepentant sexual relationship of any kind outside marriage is sin in God’s eyes.
- Therefore a nonrepentant homosexual lifestyle is sin.
- Therefore a nonrepentant adulterous relationship is sin.
- Therefore any sexual relationship before marriage is sin.
I rarely see those “hateful” Christians everyone seems to refer to today that will acknowledge that the last three are equally sin, and equally condemned by scripture, but, that doesn’t mean that either is less or more acceptable to God as a way to live that honor’s God. I do not say that in a hateful manner but in an examination of scripture. I also recognize that many, or most, “gay Christians” will take issues with my argument above and defend it away in some manner. The statements above are all based on scripture and can all be backed theologically with sound argument.
Our culture as a whole is continually refusing to see objective truths in the Bible today. Whether we like to ignore them in our day or not, they still exist, there are still things that God says are good, and those things God says are bad, we just seem to have so much knowledge in everything that we have no knowledge in the actual truth anymore.
61 responses to “Examining Christianity’s Stance on Same-Sex Relationships”
Scott,
You make a great point in that we need to argue with a little more reason from what the Bible actually teaches. It seems too many Christians are not taking a moment to teach sound biblical doctrine, and of course we can’t expect or demand non-believers to do this. These arguments are very poor, but that’s not even the issue any more. However, it seems the Christians that do discuss this difficult issue with reason and sound biblical teaching on the matters of sin and redemption are not ones out screaming, making difficult arguments, and getting the media’s attention. And at this point, those making poor arguments are rapidly becoming shut down to hearing any other teaching or approaches to understanding the Bible.
Thanks for your toughts!
Bryan
in my church gay couples marry. in my church the lives and marriages of gay believers are filled with the fruit of the spirit of christ in the same way as heterosexual believers.
is not where the spirit of god rests of god?
do you deny the importance of witness as spoken by christ in john5 and in 1john1 and as witnessed by peter in acts 10?
@john
Don’t think I ever said that if you are gay you can’t have the fruit of the Spirit resting on you, God rests His spirit on His elect regardless if they are a sinner or not (since all of us are sinners), but if your church condones gay marriage within the church itself I would have questions about other doctrine your church might support.
The argument that you bring up is an emotional argument, not a theological one that many gay Christians “think” non-gay Christians believe, that some how a “gay Christian” is somehow less worthy of grace and mercy than a “non-gay Christian”. The fabricated notion that “Christians” hate “gays”.
This is not something the Bible teaches, but, one of the points made in the post, that repentance is a necessary part of Christ’s teaching, seems to be rarely addressed by churches that condone the homosexual lifestyle, or homosexual unions.
The point being made is that sin is sin, and from your statements it doesn’t sound like they recognize sex outside of marriage as sin. The bible clearly states that sex outside of marriage is sin, and it also clearly states that marriage is between a man and a woman, so your comment didn’t really address either of those points?
I do appreciate your comment, all comments and discussion is more than welcome here.
what i dont hear believers saying is ” that according to scripture(rom, gal) the 2nd commandment (love neighbor) is the summation of all new covenant law.”
anything that is a sin is that which comes against the 2nd commandment.
being homosexual does not come against the 2nd commandment, nor the fruit of the spirit of galations.
knowing that believers cannot love god unless they are loving their neighbor also1john4:20, how is being homosexual a sin.
believers have chosen to condemn others over choices of errogenous zones thru which to express sexual intimacy.
believers have taken the blessing of procreation given to some and in turn condemned others who are not given the same blessing.
believers have chosen to denigate same sex bonding even though that bonding is the same as with that of heterosexuals………………..bonding out of mutual love ,affection, devotion respect, and trust for a shared commited life together.
how can any of this denigation and condemnation be of the spirit of christ.
There is a fundamental bridge that probably can’t be crossed with an understanding as described, and a more theological understanding of homosexuality. Taking a limited view of scripture leaves out many aspects of Jesus’ teachings. A more contextual or total view of scripture clearly addresses homosexuality as a sin, and churches that condone a homosexual lifestyle don’t see that lifestyle as sin, apparently for the reason that “love” is involved? Love, can be sin, love can be used wrong, love can be manipulated and altered.
There are many things listed in the bible as sin, none are higher or lower in God’s eyes, sin is sin. Lying, homosexuality, murder, stealing, and adultery are all listed in scripture as sin, all of which are wrong in God’s sight, but so is anything that God asks us to do individually, which we refuse to do. Fasting can be a sin if I am called to fast and refuse God’s request, where fasting is not a sin for someone else who is not called to fast. This is also clearly stated in scripture that anything at all can be sin, done in the wrong way, but in this case, scripture clearly calls out specific sins as wrong, and an unrepentant sexual relationship outside of the biblically defined marriage is pointed out as sin in scripture. Many, including King David, King Solomon, and a host of others committed sexual sins. Some repented, some did not.
I am not sure I understand your inclusion of the 2nd commandment, as seen in Exodus 20:4 (http://read.ly/Exod20.4.ESV) to argue that a homosexual lifestyle is not sin. This is really more of a justification of sin than anything else? The new covenant spoken about like this is taken way out of context from scripture. Just because the sin of homosexuality isn’t mentioned doesn’t mean that the scriptures don’t address the issues in many other places, which is does. For just one New Testament example, how do you address scripture like 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, http://read.ly/1Cor6.9.ESV ?
I understand that scripture calls us to love our brother and neighbor, that we should certainly do as well, but that doesn’t just remove the sin factor from scripture because we are called to love our neighbor? Thanks for the discussion.