Update (Disclaimer) 15 years later in 2025: This is an old post, written almost 15 years ago, but it links to another post which is of higher value to me, Are There Different Degrees of Sin? The Greater Sin of John 19:11 , so I chose to keep this post active. If you are coming here today, my posts now generally stay away from politics and almost completely concentrate on photography. For me this debate belongs in 2010 and I really have no interest in it today as I did back then.
Contrary to what the world says, views change and mature, and people do have the ability to evaluate their own heart. While I did write the post below in 2010, I would say looking back at my 2010 self, my heart has changed, in general, and a lot of what I wrote I would not write today (mainly because I loath politics and divisive topics now).
I have witnessed other people of faith be theologically correct while at the same time be very judgmental, harsh, and unloving, and that is not who I am or who I want to be today. Timothy calls for patience in 2 Timothy 4:2, and I think loving others through being very patient better describes what I write today.
2 Timothy 4:2 …be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. (ESV)
The links below are almost all broken links now, but I have kept the links the way they were in 2010 just to preserve where they pointed at the time.
Original Text on Prop 8
California’s “Prop 8” proves that same-sex relationships are acceptable to Christians and compatible with scripture. Of course this is utter ridiculousness, but, that severely flawed logic seems to be what is prevailing in our culture today. This topic, which I usually just tend to leave alone, is overpowering the news, blogs, and culture lately (and is certainly nothing new under the sun, gay’s have been trying to justify their actions for millennia, see Why is Being Gay a Sin? for a civil discussion, Does Romans 1:26 Condemn Lesbians? for the absurd justification, and then an honest “Christian Perspective”, not forgetting to throw in Anne Rice who recently “quit” Christianity on Facebook [comments in pdf,] with Mark Driscoll’s response for the Washington Post, because she didn’t want to be “anti-gay anymore”, and the countless trash talk about Proposition 8 in California).
With Proposition 8 being overturned by the California courts, this seems destined for the Supreme Court (where they probably don’t want to deal with it either). The Boston Globe did a huge photo spread called Same Sex Marriage about a week ago and the responses to that article show why this, unfortunately, is THE topic of our day for Christians and the church. This discussion really wasn’t intended to launch into whether being gay is a sin or not, but to show the absurd arguments on both sides, which lack any careful thought.
This comment below is typical when reading trash talk on the news sites, and was made by someone who used the title “I Feel Drawn Towards Christianity, But I’m Gay”, which then received very complimentary responses, with little question for the lifestyle itself, or with sound argument for or against Christians and the homosexual lifestyle, and what scripture has to say about it’s effects and consequences.
I was surprised in a few ways, one by how openly acceptable the Christian responses were to this person. Not that they were accepting of the person, that’s great, but accepting of all aspects of the persons lifestyle, with not much need for contemplation (although some did suggest the person generically seek God’s direction). The other surprise was how utterly weak the reasoning and arguments were that were used on both sides.
I am certainly no expert on this topic whatsoever, and there are many who can soundly argue, on both sides, but those seem to be few and far between. No gay person I talk to (and many Christians for that matter) can give a sound theological argument, backed and based on scripture (since this person “feels drawn to Christianity”). The majority of the arguments put forth are emotional arguments, which are impossible to argue against in a rational manner. This is the argument that was given in this particular case:
The Bible also condemns divorce, the eating of pork and shrimp, and says that men shouldn’t sit on the same chairs as women who are menstruating.
The argument seems to lack even a surface level study of scripture, but most Christians responded with nothing other than an emotional response. As with much of Scripture in our culture today, these verses are taken so much out of context for the use of the argument for a homosexual lifestyle I am surprised they were made? I am not being mean or hateful in spirit here, but seriously, if you are gay, this is your argument?
- The Bible condemns the eating of pork.
- We eat pork today.
- Therefore, homosexuality is ok in the sight of the Lord.
There are so many things that could be addressed but at the basic level, in Mark 7:18-19 Jesus declared all foods to be clean, he didn’t declare all forms of sex to be clean. A better argument that perhaps shows a little more clearly why scripture says that the homosexual lifestyle is sinful in God’s eyes (and there are many things that are actually still seen as sinful in God’s eyes today, besides homosexuality), would be:
Point 1 on Sin:
- The Bible says sin is detestable in God’s eye’s.
- Therefore any continuous sinful act is not honoring to God.
Point 2 on Marriage:
- The Bible defines sex outside of marriage as sin.
- The Bible defines marriage as a monogamous union between a man and a woman.
- Therefore any nonrepentant sexual relationship of any kind outside marriage is sin in God’s eyes.
- Therefore a nonrepentant homosexual lifestyle is sin.
- Therefore a nonrepentant adulterous relationship is sin.
- Therefore any sexual relationship before marriage is sin.
I rarely see those “hateful” Christians everyone seems to refer to today that will acknowledge that the last three are equally sin, and equally condemned by scripture, but, that doesn’t mean that either is less or more acceptable to God as a way to live that honor’s God. I do not say that in a hateful manner but in an examination of scripture. I also recognize that many, or most, “gay Christians” will take issues with my argument above and defend it away in some manner. The statements above are all based on scripture and can all be backed theologically with sound argument.
Our culture as a whole is continually refusing to see objective truths in the Bible today. Whether we like to ignore them in our day or not, they still exist, there are still things that God says are good, and those things God says are bad, we just seem to have so much knowledge in everything that we have no knowledge in the actual truth anymore.
61 responses to “Examining Christianity’s Stance on Same-Sex Relationships”
@john
I am not sure what you point is to keep repeating the same thing over and over again, we all know “God is love” verses. Just because a verse in the bible, taken out of context, says “God is love” means that homosexuality are acceptable to God. In making all these comments you have actually proved my post to be correct, as much as my original point in the post when I said the other person justified a homosexual lifestyle by saying we eat pork. Your argument basically comes down to this.
After reading all of your comments, and trying understand what you context is between God, love, and homosexuality, I can only conclude that your proposition to be:
God is love
Homosexuality is a form of love
Therefore homosexuality is not a sin.
This argument, or any variation of this argument is categorically incorrect, inaccurate, and does not follow the context of the bible taken as a whole, especially when you are not referring to a proper form of love as taken from a contextual reading of scripture. You are trying to justify a sin, it is as simple as that. I could do the same thing for any number of sins that aren’t homosexuality, but in the end, it is simply justification for something God says he hates (not loves).
You can continue to quote scripture out of context to justify your argument, I don’t mind the conversation, I just don’t see the point as you haven’t made your point any more understandable not than it was in the beginning?
John,
That was what I thought you were alluding to; however, love is not what saved us. To understand how and why we are justified, one needs to understand the efficacious work of Christ (this means His efficiency). Christians are not justified by Christ on the cross (solely). By Christ taking the penalty of sin, upon Himself, becoming sin, when he knew no sin, mankind was reconciled back into the “Adamic” state (when man was first made in God’s image and likeness). This reconciliation comes by faith alone, through Christ’s work and atonement, but it was a “judicial” act, that you and I (who believe) are allowed to come back into the presence of God. However, it was though Christ’s obedience in fulfilling the Law and obedience and humility even to the cross, that we are justified. One MUST look upon his/her sin, at the cross, and believe to be saved. It is NOT by love. I certainly love Christ for what He did, but I revere Him and respect Him because He is LORD and Master of my life. This is why Paul and Peter always start their letter, “I, ‘insert name’ am a BOND-SERVANT of Christ.”
A bond-servant cannot be greater than his master. If the Master became sin and recognized that mankind must look upon sin to be saved; what makes you believe that merely love will save you?? What you are believing is an old heretical theological view called antinomianism (you need to google that). Scott is correct, you are in a cyclical argument that never addresses your sin; we ALL need to address our lifestyle and our sin, “turn” to become more like Him, that is the goal. However, it is not the knowledge of the love that God had, that saves me, it is the Holy Spirit’s illuminating power that convicts me of sin (Jn 14), showing me that I am a sinner and in need of grace. I deserve justice (the penalty of my sin), but God gave me grace (what I did not deserve) because of faith alone, in His Son (my Savior, Lord, and Master). Is that clear, or do I have to explain this concept again?
His servant,
Matt
“God is love
Homosexuality is a form of love
Therefore homosexuality is not a sin.”
god is love
the love of god is in heterosexual believers in the same way his love is in heterosexual believers
where the spirit rests is what is of god.
therefore if being heterosexual is not a sin, neither is being homosexual
scripture doesnt declare it a sin, but affirms it is of god thru its words about love, faith, spirit, and fruit of the spirt.
“what makes you believe that merely love will save you?”
how can you seperate anything that is christ from the love that is of christ, who is god, who is love? if christ is love anything that is of him is love. any goodness that comes from heaven is love…….such as ones faith.
1cor13:if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.
@john
Pretty much no new ground covered here, except, this statement just baffles me, seriously, baffles me.
“scripture doesnt declare it [homosexuality] a sin, but affirms it [homosexuality] is of god thru its words about love, faith, spirit, and fruit of the spirt.”
It is the second half of that statement that is so unfounded in scripture it amazes me you continue to use that argument. Scripture AFFIRMS homosexuality is of God? That gap is so wide I am not sure there is a (human) bridge that could ever cross it. I am sorry but you have gone so far down the line of looking at justifying sin that you are completely blinded by your own opinion of what you perceive to be “affirming of God?”
This is not new ground at all, but there is not one place in scripture that speaks about homosexuality in a positive manner. When the bible speaks specifically about homosexuality (not this misunderstanding you seem to have about the love of God), actually mentions homosexuality specifically, calls it by name or action, it is said in a negative light.
Again, I’m sorry, but you are not going to convince me (or I would say anyone who takes a contextual look at scripture) that homosexuality is a positive thing that comes out of the love of God. Find one place in scripture that specifically speaks directly about homosexuality in a positive manner, specially, by name? It doesn’t. So saying it comes from God is just not a rational response to scripture. I appreciate your position, scripture just does not back it up.
you say romans 1 is about homosexuality but you wont explain how the words say it is about homosexuality. i have no interest in changing your mind. everyone is entitled to their own opinion without recrimination. but whether that is what scripture says by what is written is another matter. you will not explain your rendition of romans1 word by word, phrase by phrase.