Prop 8 Proves Homosexual Lifestyle Acceptable to God

Of course this is utter ridiculousness, but, that severely flawed logic seems to be what is prevailing in our culture today. This topic, which I usually just tend to leave alone, is overpowering the news, blogs, and culture lately (and is certainly nothing new under the sun, gay’s have been trying to justify their actions for millennia, see Why is Being Gay a Sin? for a civil discussion, Does Romans 1:26 Condemn Lesbians? for the absurd justification, and then an honest “Christian Perspective”, not forgetting to throw in Anne Rice who recently “quit” Christianity on Facebook [comments in pdf,] with Mark Driscoll’s response for the Washington Post, because she didn’t want to be “anti-gay anymore”, and the countless trash talk about Proposition 8 in California).

With Proposition 8 being overturned by the California courts, this seems destined for the Supreme Court (where they probably don’t want to deal with it either). The Boston Globe did a huge photo spread called Same Sex Marriage about a week ago and the responses to that article show why this, unfortunately, is THE topic of our day for Christians and the church.  This discussion really wasn’t intended to launch into whether being gay is a sin or not, but to show the absurd arguments on both sides, which lack any careful thought.

This comment below is typical when reading trash talk on the news sites, and was made by someone who used the title “I Feel Drawn Towards Christianity, But I’m Gay”, which then received very complimentary responses, with little question for the lifestyle itself, or with sound argument for or against Christians and the homosexual lifestyle, and what scripture has to say about it’s effects and consequences.

I was surprised in a few ways, one by how openly acceptable the Christian responses were to this person.  Not that they were accepting of the person, that’s great, but accepting of all aspects of the persons lifestyle, with not much need for contemplation (although some did suggest the person generically seek God’s direction). The other surprise was how utterly weak the reasoning and arguments were that were used on both sides.

I am certainly no expert on this topic whatsoever, and there are many who can soundly argue, on both sides, but those seem to be few and far between.  No gay person I talk to (and many Christians for that matter) can give a sound theological argument, backed and based on scripture (since this person “feels drawn to Christianity”).  The majority of the arguments put forth are emotional arguments, which are impossible to argue against in a rational manner.  This is the argument that was given in this particular case:

The Bible also condemns divorce, the eating of pork and shrimp, and says that men shouldn’t sit on the same chairs as women who are menstruating.

The argument seems to lack even a surface level study of scripture, but most Christians responded with nothing other than an emotional response.  As with much of Scripture in our culture today, these verses are taken so much out of context for the use of the argument for a homosexual lifestyle I am surprised they were made? I am not being mean or hateful in spirit here, but seriously, if you are gay, this is your argument?

  • The Bible condemns the eating of pork.
  • We eat pork today.
  • Therefore, homosexuality is ok in the sight of the Lord.

There are so many things that could be addressed but at the basic level, in Mark 7:18-19 Jesus declared all foods to be clean, he didn’t declare all forms of sex to be clean. A better argument that perhaps shows a little more clearly why scripture says that the homosexual lifestyle is sinful in God’s eyes (and there are many things that are actually still seen as sinful in God’s eyes today, besides homosexuality), would be:

Point 1 on Sin:

  • The Bible says sin is detestable in God’s eye’s.
  • Therefore any continuous sinful act is not honoring to God.

Point 2 on Marriage:

  • The Bible defines sex outside of marriage as sin.
  • The Bible defines marriage as a monogamous union between a man and a woman.
  • Therefore any nonrepentant sexual relationship of any kind outside marriage is sin in God’s eyes.
  • Therefore a nonrepentant homosexual lifestyle is sin.
  • Therefore a nonrepentant adulterous relationship is sin.
  • Therefore any sexual relationship before marriage is sin.

I rarely see those “hateful” Christians everyone seems to refer to today that will acknowledge that the last three are equally sin, and equally condemned by scripture, but, that doesn’t mean that either is less or more acceptable to God as a way to live that honor’s God. I do not say that in a hateful manner but in an examination of scripture.  I also recognize that many, or most, “gay Christians” will take issues with my argument above and defend it away in some manner.  The statements above are all based on scripture and can all be backed theologically with sound argument.

Our culture as a whole is continually refusing to see objective truths in the Bible today. Whether we like to ignore them in our day or not, they still exist, there are still things that God says are good, and those things God says are bad, we just seem to have so much knowledge in everything that we have no knowledge in the actual truth anymore.

57 thoughts on “Prop 8 Proves Homosexual Lifestyle Acceptable to God

  1. Bryan Catherman

    Scott,

    You make a great point in that we need to argue with a little more reason from what the Bible actually teaches. It seems too many Christians are not taking a moment to teach sound biblical doctrine, and of course we can’t expect or demand non-believers to do this. These arguments are very poor, but that’s not even the issue any more. However, it seems the Christians that do discuss this difficult issue with reason and sound biblical teaching on the matters of sin and redemption are not ones out screaming, making difficult arguments, and getting the media’s attention. And at this point, those making poor arguments are rapidly becoming shut down to hearing any other teaching or approaches to understanding the Bible.

    Thanks for your toughts!

    Bryan

    Reply
  2. john r

    in my church gay couples marry. in my church the lives and marriages of gay believers are filled with the fruit of the spirit of christ in the same way as heterosexual believers.

    is not where the spirit of god rests of god?

    do you deny the importance of witness as spoken by christ in john5 and in 1john1 and as witnessed by peter in acts 10?

    Reply
  3. Scott Fillmer

    @john

    Don’t think I ever said that if you are gay you can’t have the fruit of the Spirit resting on you, God rests His spirit on His elect regardless if they are a sinner or not (since all of us are sinners), but if your church condones gay marriage within the church itself I would have questions about other doctrine your church might support.

    The argument that you bring up is an emotional argument, not a theological one that many gay Christians “think” non-gay Christians believe, that some how a “gay Christian” is somehow less worthy of grace and mercy than a “non-gay Christian”. The fabricated notion that “Christians” hate “gays”.

    This is not something the Bible teaches, but, one of the points made in the post, that repentance is a necessary part of Christ’s teaching, seems to be rarely addressed by churches that condone the homosexual lifestyle, or homosexual unions.

    The point being made is that sin is sin, and from your statements it doesn’t sound like they recognize sex outside of marriage as sin. The bible clearly states that sex outside of marriage is sin, and it also clearly states that marriage is between a man and a woman, so your comment didn’t really address either of those points?

    I do appreciate your comment, all comments and discussion is more than welcome here.

    Reply
  4. john r

    what i dont hear believers saying is ” that according to scripture(rom, gal) the 2nd commandment (love neighbor) is the summation of all new covenant law.”

    anything that is a sin is that which comes against the 2nd commandment.

    being homosexual does not come against the 2nd commandment, nor the fruit of the spirit of galations.

    knowing that believers cannot love god unless they are loving their neighbor also1john4:20, how is being homosexual a sin.

    believers have chosen to condemn others over choices of errogenous zones thru which to express sexual intimacy.

    believers have taken the blessing of procreation given to some and in turn condemned others who are not given the same blessing.

    believers have chosen to denigate same sex bonding even though that bonding is the same as with that of heterosexuals………………..bonding out of mutual love ,affection, devotion respect, and trust for a shared commited life together.

    how can any of this denigation and condemnation be of the spirit of christ.

    Reply
  5. Scott Fillmer

    There is a fundamental bridge that probably can’t be crossed with an understanding as described, and a more theological understanding of homosexuality. Taking a limited view of scripture leaves out many aspects of Jesus’ teachings. A more contextual or total view of scripture clearly addresses homosexuality as a sin, and churches that condone a homosexual lifestyle don’t see that lifestyle as sin, apparently for the reason that “love” is involved? Love, can be sin, love can be used wrong, love can be manipulated and altered.

    There are many things listed in the bible as sin, none are higher or lower in God’s eyes, sin is sin. Lying, homosexuality, murder, stealing, and adultery are all listed in scripture as sin, all of which are wrong in God’s sight, but so is anything that God asks us to do individually, which we refuse to do. Fasting can be a sin if I am called to fast and refuse God’s request, where fasting is not a sin for someone else who is not called to fast. This is also clearly stated in scripture that anything at all can be sin, done in the wrong way, but in this case, scripture clearly calls out specific sins as wrong, and an unrepentant sexual relationship outside of the biblically defined marriage is pointed out as sin in scripture. Many, including King David, King Solomon, and a host of others committed sexual sins. Some repented, some did not.

    I am not sure I understand your inclusion of the 2nd commandment, as seen in Exodus 20:4 (http://read.ly/Exod20.4.ESV) to argue that a homosexual lifestyle is not sin. This is really more of a justification of sin than anything else? The new covenant spoken about like this is taken way out of context from scripture. Just because the sin of homosexuality isn’t mentioned doesn’t mean that the scriptures don’t address the issues in many other places, which is does. For just one New Testament example, how do you address scripture like 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, http://read.ly/1Cor6.9.ESV ?

    I understand that scripture calls us to love our brother and neighbor, that we should certainly do as well, but that doesn’t just remove the sin factor from scripture because we are called to love our neighbor? Thanks for the discussion.

    Reply
  6. Fred Conwell

    Jesus defines ALL sin as lack of love (Matthew 22:36-40). Do you see unlove in homosexual relationships? Who is unloved in this consentual coupling? Who is hurt and ready for a lawsuit?
    (Incidentally, I’d like to see some Bible references to your litany of sins in Point 2.)

    Reply
    1. Scott Self

      To simply answer the question raised in the previous post, God is unloved in a homosexual relationship. He asked that it not be done, therefore by doing it is not showing love to Him.

      Reply
  7. john r

    ” which are wrong in god’s sight” are you as a believer claiming to know the mind of god? scripture would disagree with you, believers seeing in part thru a poor reflection darkly.

    the 2nd commmandment, love your neighbor as yourself……again, the summation of all new covenant law. under the new covenant the law is to make believers “conscious” of NOT,NOT,NOT loving their neighbors as themselves

    Reply
  8. Scott Fillmer

    @Fred

    as love is an attribute of God, an attribute that comes from God, the “love” of that type of relationship is a manipulated version of the love that God intends, much in the same way that two people engaged in adultery can be “in love” and while both sides (the consenting couple as you put it) would say they are a loving couple, it is not the love spoken about in Matthew 22:36-40.

    Even if one could make a theological argument that this is the love being referred to in the case of adultery or homosexuality, this command by Jesus never overrides sin. You cannot be fulfilling Matthew 22:36-40 by being in a homosexual relationship, or say that being gay is fulfilling Matthew 22:36-40, that is not a sound argument. This is the same logic that people use to justify killing an abortion doctor. Killing the abortion doctor is murder (sin) but nothing justifies the action by saying “God told me to sin” or whatever excuse might be made. Sin is sin.

    As far as my references for Point 2, I specifically left those off on purpose. As I stated in the post, anyone bent on not seeing the displayed proposition would not be swayed by specific scriptural references, and will use each one completely out of context to prove their own point. A contextual reading of scripture shows all points in proposition 2 above to be true, and keeping scripture within it’s own context is very important to having a firm understanding of it’s teaching.

    I am sure you are well aware of the scriptural arguments, but if you must, see:

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 :: Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 6:12-17 :: Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, The two will become one flesh. 17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.

    Hebrews 13:4 :: Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.

    …… I can go on and list several others but that’s not really the point. A good point for Christians to ask other Christian might be why are they so adamant about pointing out sin in other people’s lives instead of looking at the sin in their own lives, which to me is quite valid, but so far, no one is willing to admit that the continuous unrepentant homosexual lifestyle is sin. And when no one can admit that a gay lifestyle is sin, I am not sure what their answer for 1 Corinthians 6 is.

    If God calls an act something that will prevent an unrepentant person from entering the kingdom of heaven, that sounds pretty serious to me, like, sin perhaps.

    Reply
  9. Scott Fillmer

    @john

    when something is “wrong in God’s sight” scripture says as much, I don’t have to claim to know God’s mind, which I don’t and scripture says I can’t, but I can know it’s teachings through the revealed Word, and scripture says things are evil in God’s eyes, it also says there are certain things that God “hates”, and repeating those statements is not a claim to know the mind of God, it is repeating what God has already said.

    Your “summation” of the new covenant does not refer to sinful acts, love wrongfully contrived does not justify sin by saying everything under the sun is now acceptable if it is counted as an act of “love” as seen how I want to see it.

    Reply
  10. john r

    “it is repeating what God has already said.” and all that listening, hearing, and reading (of teachings) is done thru seeing(understanding) in part thru a poor reflection darkly.

    that why each has his own understanding, which may or may not be god’s understanding.

    you say you see in scripture that homosexuality is a sin. i see it no where.

    romans 1: they exchanged the truth of god’s love(god is love) for a lie and worshipped and served the created (powers and principalities……the things that christ said we were to battle against) and were given over to the things that served them……..shameful lust. they abandoned the natural those things that brought and exuded the fruit of the spirit of galatians, that brought them peace, for that which did not and brought them no peace. the due penalty self hatred and self loathing.

    homosexuals have never had women or intended to have women their entire lives since their earliest sexual memory. they cannot abandon what they have never had nor never intended to have.

    homosexuals do not bond out of “shameful lust” but instead in the same way as heterosexuals out mutual love, respect, devotion, affection,and trust for a shared committed life together. and those believing homosexuals that marry, their marriages are filled with the fruit of the spirit in the way as those of believing heterosexuals.

    the legal gay marriages in massachussetts have not descended into the 50% divorce rate as the heterosexuals that were married at the same time.

    Reply
  11. john r

    the love of the 2nd commandment is godlove……..the love of the third commandment(love one another as i have loved you).

    1john4:20 one cannot love god unless he is loving (godloving) his neighbor also. essence we god love god. he first loved us and thru grace we in turn love him back with the same love

    therefore you cannot do the first commandment unless you are doing the second also.

    godloving……..carrying anothers burdens, honoring their life experiences and sincerity of heart, up close and personnal as in 1john1 “that which we have heard, which we have looked at, which we have seen with our eyes and our hands have touched.”

    whatever you have considered the least……………….”whatever you have done to the least of these you have done to me”

    Reply
  12. john r

    in lev god says that slavery is good”take slaveas from the surrounding countries for life and pass them onto to your children as inheritance

    1kings “all the men that solomon could not kill in battle he conscripted into his slavelabor camps”

    yet under new covenant of christ, slavery is an intolerable evil because of its violation of the 2nd commandment(love neighbor).

    in num 15:32-36 god tells moses directly to stone a man for gathering firewood on the sabbath.

    under the new covenant household chores and household chores on the sabbath are permissable.

    yes scripture says the a man did evil in the sight of god, not necessarily because the thing of itself was a sin, but because god saw fit to tell them at that time not to do it.

    consider that as a child is being raised the parent tells the child not to touch the stove or he will be punished, yet as the child becomes older the parent relies on him being able to discern when it is safe, and no longer threatens punishment.

    yes. under the old covenant it was necessary for god to create a seperate people. but under the new we no longer have a relationship to god thru regulation aS IN DEUT 28,(TORN CURTAIN),but instead it is directly to the spirit that lives in each believer, a relationship that i dont hear you including in your understanding of what is of the spirit of christ(given all authority and all judgement).

    col1:15christ is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
    21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[f] your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

    Reply
  13. john r

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10,

    1corr and 1tim paul, a highly learned man created a compound word (arsenkaitoi) rather than repeat the same word seperated phrase from lev.. compound words may or may not have the same meaning as the words that make them up….ladykiller paul never taught thru the law not even with the man who had his father’s wife. for paul to denote a physicality as a sin without any indication of violation of spirit would mean making a regulation. there are no regulations under the new covenant. believers do not have a relationship to god thru regulation as in deut 28. but instead directly to the one who lives in each believer. (torn curtain) what paul is refering in 1cor and 1tim is a behavior of defilement (that violates the spirit thru which all were created…christ) similar to the shameful lust of romans.

    where there is lust there can be no bonding relationship, because the persons involved are there to satiate the lust.

    about 1tim and 1cor.

    queen victoria head of both england and the church of england(no seperation of church and state)(victorian era) attempted to make homosexuality a sin, influenced by a 400 year old law being on the books enacted by another head of the church/state, henry the eighth, that made homosexual sex a hanging offense. she attempted to make it a sin by transposition of the word” homosexual” into scripture.

    but the transposition does not support the translation of the wycliffe bible 1384
    continued
    1cor:9 Whether ye know not, that wicked men shall not wield the kingdom of God? Do not ye err; neither lechers, neither men that serve maumets [neither men serving to idols], neither adulterers, neither lechers against kind, neither they that do LECHERY with men,
    1tim1:10
    10 and lechers, to them that do LECHERY with men, lying-mongers and forsworn, and if any other thing is contrary to the wholesome teaching,

    lecher………………someone who is obsessed with sexual gratification.

    heterosexuals have been known for lechery also, but this in no way invalidates their orientation.

    the kvj bible(1500’s) supports the wycliffe interpretation.
    continued
    1cor:6:9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor ABUSERS(defilers) of themselves with mankind,
    1tim1:10For whoremongers, for them that DEFILE themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

    1tim and 1cor is about defiling lust, of romans 1.
    romans1:27 Also the men [the males, or men,] forsook the natural use of woman, and BURNED in their desires together

    because they were given over to shameful lust they were given over to abandonment.
    romans1:27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their LUST one toward another.

    again where there is lust there is no bonding, no relationship, because the sole purpose of coming together is to satiate the lust.

    again the kjv points to LECHERY as to what paul is referring to.
    this in no way relates or refers to human bonding of homosexuals which is done out of mutual love, respect, devotion,affection,and trust for a shared committed life together, the same as heterosexuals.

    Reply
  14. Scott Fillmer

    @john

    All you are doing is trying to justify an act the Bible calls wrong by saying it is an act of love, covered by the fruit of the spirit? You keep saying the same thing over and over but it still doesn’t make it correct. The fruit of the spirit no more applies to an unrepentant homosexual lifestyle than not eating pork does.

    You are being deceived. “1 Corinthians 6:9-10 :: Do not be deceived:”

    Reply
  15. john r

    queen victoria tranposing the word homosexual into scripture to attempt to validate lev into the new covenant, does nothing because we are not under the law but instead grace which is spirit. if homosexuality is a sin it has to violate that spirit, the spirit of christ, which is about the godlove of the 2nd commandment(love neighbor),which is about the fruit of the spirit. being homosexual doesnt violate any of these. you have given no explanation of how it does. you are saying that we live under regualtion as in deut 28. why would we be living under something that even if we follow it we receive no salvation? why would you claim the importance obedience to a regulation, when 1cor13 says anything without love is nothing and gains nothing. this includes obedience.

    Reply
  16. Scott Fillmer

    I can’t make it any more clear than I already have. The love you are referring to does NOT refer to the fruit of the spirit, it is more akin to the “love” that occurs between two people still in an adulterous relationship. They may say it is “love” but it is not love that comes from the fruit of the spirit, it is “love” born out of sin.

    There are many different ways we have in our society to express “love”, just because the English language is deficient in handling all the various aspects of the word “love” doesn’t mean that all aspects of love come from the fruit of the spirit.

    Interestingly, your interpretation of Romans 1 shows that you are answering your own question, it is love born out of lust, which is not part of the fruit of the spirit.

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  17. john r

    how is that possible, adulterous, lust ridden love compared to the love of heterosexuals.

    homosexuals have never been found lacking in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals. they are not less a father friend, doctor, counselor, doctor, teacher, therapist, pastor, administrator, attorney,neighbor brother etc. would you say the same about those were given over to lust ridden adulterous love compared to those that were not.

    you can call it anything you want but you have no witness to support your claim. the importance of witness 1john1, john 5.

    you have yet to give your rendition of romans.

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  18. john r

    “it is love born out of lust, which is not part of the fruit of the spirit.”

    im waiting for your rendition of romans to show me how scripture says this.

    how can you compare those who live fully heterosexual lives with those who have been attracted to the same sex their entire lives from their first sexual memory, whose marriages are full of the fruit of the spirit. and those married heterosexuals who out of lust abandoned their marriages to satiate their lust.

    Reply
  19. Matt

    John and Scott,

    I am going to take another route here, but first let me clarify my point on Galatians 5:22-23 and the fruits of the Spirit. The wording here is powerful and should never be taken lightly. Paul is talking about eternal damnation to Christians, not unbelievers. In context, let us read:

    “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.”

    Paul is conclusively dealing with the Galatian problem of Judaizers and the Law (i.e. legalism). He is contrasting here, in this text, the difference between living in (or according to) the flesh versus living according to the Spirit. The flesh is filled with the attributes concerning verses 19-21, coupled with a severe admonition concerning eternal damnation for those who believe they are followers of Christ (as he once warned them in the flesh) who are unwilling to follow the Spirit’s guidance.

    Let us remember, Paul is writing to Christians, so this is not directed at non-believers. A “believer” cannot be filled with the fruit of the Spirit and the fruit of the flesh. Am I saying that a Christian cannot sin, no; to the contrary, a believer may, and in fact, does, sin. However, it is the habitual sinning of drunkenness, envy, anger, idolatry, or in the context of this argument, homosexuality. Any believer who fails to yield his/her life to the Spirit against the flesh, Paul stated, but follows idolatry, sexual immorality, drunkenness and the like, cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Why? Well, the person is choosing sin over righteousness and filthy rags over purity.

    Since God is holy and pure and cannot be in the presence of habitual transgressions, and the believer’s body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit (the third person of the Trinity) then God cannot dwell in habitual sin and darkness. Paul stated, “What partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God…” (2 Cor. 6:14-16). Darkness and light cannot live together, period. I guess we should clarify the difference between sin and willful sin. Sin is “missing the mark,” which we all do, but willful sin means to break through, or go through (transgression); meaning, in sin, we have made a mistake, perhaps a huge one, but in transgressing (willful sin), we have clearly broken through God’s unconditional command, we have performed an act knowingly and willingly, without fear of retribution. This why Paul stated, “Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body”( 1 Cor. 6:18).

    It is undeniable that Paul is contrasting to “believers” that they cannot continue to walk in the flesh and walk in the Spirit. This is not a new argument, sexual immorality has been around since the fall of man. I must also say this; if we have drunks thinking they are going to heaven and continue to be led by the Spirit, that is awful shaky ground. That used to scare the daylights out of me when I used to drink. I need to clarify as well, I am not saying that all homosexuals are not going to inherit the kingdom of God; Paul did, through the inspiration of the Godhead. Paul uses the staunch word for “warn” twice in the Greek, clarifying the admonishment. I realize this is a sensitive topic, but habitual willful sin is not the same as the fruit of the Spirit, and one cannot have both, that was Paul’s warning.

    This may be what Jesus alludes to here in Luke 12:47, “And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.” Jesus is talking about “servants” and not non-servants? Just a thought.

    His servant and yours,
    Matt

    Reply
  20. john r

    everything you have said about sin i dont disagree with.
    consider going onto romans. that romans1 is about the basis of all sin.

    as paul says in acts 17

    24″The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28’FOR IN HIM WE LIVE AND HAVE OUR BEING’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

    29″Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”

    yet as paul said they did not give praise and thanks to god, they traded their eternal relationshipwith god for obsession about their mortal lives, exchanged the truth of his love for a lie and worship served powers and principalities, they did not consider it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of god.

    “therefore you who condemn another you condemn yourselves for you do the very same things.”

    our leading is not by law but by the spirit that lives in each believer, because “the law is but a shadow of things to come not the realities themselves”

    if you put a bright light in a dark room, if you turn away from the light you see the shadows. the shadows indicate the presence of the light and the direction from where the light comes. but the shadow is not the light, instead it is the absence of the light.

    the law is to make us conscious of NOT NOT NOT LOVING our neighbor as ourselves the summation of all new covenant law. the law is not the light but a shadow of the light. the light is actual godloving.

    god is spirit. god is love. godlove is spirit. the spirit that lives within us is what leads us.what does godlove look like? it has no image. because it is about spirit, about the fruit of the spirit. spirit creating spirit. surely the fruit of the spirit of christ is different from that of powers and principalities.

    the law can tell us what it is not, but it is the light that daily shows and leads us as to what it is.

    there is no understanding about sin if it is not about proactive godlove of the 1st and 2nd commandment.

    believers have been mislead to think that loving god means being proactive about their in part understanding thru a poor reflection darkly. that’s not true. loving god means godloving their neighbor at the same time they are loving god. how can any believer deny fellowship deny fellowship to another believer not about witness of the spirit but instead about issues ( not issues about the light but about the shadows) of understanding of the law.

    the thing that is very apparent is that those who condemn being homosexual as a sin do it without any love for them, because they do it by priding themselves on denying 1john1 fellowship with them.( up close and personnal…….that which we heard, which we havwe looked at, which we have seen with our eyes and our hands have touched). 1john1 says just the opposite that in living in fellowship with one another, christ blood will purify(protect) them from all sin. do suppose that mother teresa’s ministry of hindus would have ever existed if she had thought this way, ministring to those who sincerely believed in all things hindu. mother teresa who told her nuns not to engage in discussions about christ but instead to be christ.

    Reply
  21. john r

    now if living in christ is about spirit, then it is our witness of that spirit that shows us what is of god. if it is about spirit then it cannot be about physicality because as scripture says physicality “the flesh” counts for nothing. physicalities about choices of errogenous zones for expressing sexual intimacy and different pairing of genders accounts for nothing. what accounts for christ is the spirit that those involved have given themselves over to in their heart, their faith in christ, the godlove of the 2nd commandment, and the fruit of the spirit of galatians.

    the law is limited in that it merely measures outward expressions, while faith and relationship with christ(the spirit of the one who lives in us) is about conviction of our hearts about not loving. the greater is what leads us. the greater is what leads our under standing of the lesser.

    Reply
  22. Matt

    John,

    I think we have already shown through proper exegesis that Galatians 5:22-23 is connected to a contrast of how not to live and the ramifications of living in the flesh.

    Accordingly, your use of the 2nd Commandment is eisegesis (taking Scripture out of context). Assuredly, God is love, and God is just; God must punish those who accept Him, and acknowledge that His only Son bore the full penalty of sin and was the propitiation of God’s wrath on man, for that sin, and continue to habitually disregard the warnings He has given. The warning in Romans 1 declares that God gave those men and women up (gave them up to their reprobate minds) who had decided to not use their bodies according to the purpose that He created them, which was sexually immoral. Paul was certainly not talking about God’s love, otherwise the covenant Jews had a higher “leg to stand on” than the gentile because God would have loved them more. However, Paul’s argument comes to a divided church.
    The emperor Claudius, in 49 AD, had evicted the Jews from Rome (that is how Paul met Priscilla and Aquila in Corinth~Christian Jews), but in 54 AD, when Nero took over, he allowed them to filter back in, lifting the ban for political clout. When this happened, Jews came back into gentile run churches and thought they had favor, the covenant, and were “special;” however, Paul had to “level” the playing field and proclaim that all of humanity have fallen short of God’s glory (Rom. 3:23). Also, he had to inform the gentiles that they came from a rudimentary people who were homosexual and lesbians and God forbade those acts because it degraded His creation. The Jews would have already known that, having the Law.
    This is why Paul tell the Corinthians too, “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:9-11). Notice, Paul declares to the believers in Corinth, “Such were some of you…” They are that way no more; meaning, they are no longer practice alcoholics, thieves, adulterers, or homosexuals.

    John, in all honesty, it comes to this…we were all “born” with a sin nature. I was born with a genetic capability of alcoholism, that makes me no better than you, or less; however, we must conceded to the flesh and realize that we serve a holy and righteous God.

    His servant and yours,
    Matt

    Reply
  23. john r

    22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness
    and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    I think we have already shown through proper exegesis that Galatians 5:22-23 is connected to a contrast of how not to live and the ramifications of living in the flesh.

    could you please expand on this im not clear on what this statement means.

    Reply
  24. john r

    The warning in Romans 1 declares that God gave those men and women up (gave them up to their reprobate minds) who had decided to not use their bodies.

    if homosexuality of itself is a sin then why the necessity of mentioning shameful lust?

    there are a multitude of reasons that people have sex with one another, need to feel loved, low self esteem, self hatred, curiousity, loneliness, etc. lust compared to all the rest combined is a very small percentage.

    Reply
  25. john r

    if you are given over to the spirit of christ then your life is filled with the fruit of the holy spirit……yes or no?

    the fruit of the spirit of christ is different from that of powers and principalities, the things of the flesh, and the world, because they are of a different spirit…. yes or no?

    Reply
  26. Matt

    John,

    Thanks for responding back. Let me explain Gal 5:22-23:

    Paul was warning the Galatians, not only against the Judaizers (who claimed you needed to be circumcised and follow some of the Law to be saved), but he was also addressing those who though that they had “free liberty” in Christ to live as they pleased, even if it violated God’s “un”-conditional Law. Paul mentioned to the “Christians” in Galatia that they could not continue to live in sexual immorality, drunkenness, idolatry, and the like (v. 19-21) as free liberty in Christ, they were warned that living like that meant they would not inherit the kingdom of God. They were to live differently, by the fruit of the Spirit, “AND” as they belonged to Christ Jesus, having crucified the flesh “along with” its passions and desires (22-24). We have to take that entire passage as a whole, not separate; meaning, it is Galatians 5:16-24. So that we don’t confuse answers and questions, lets keep these separated, and I will try an answer your other questions in another post. If you still don’t see the connection between flesh/passion/sexual immorality vs. self-control, patience, faithfulness, then I will continue.

    Reply
  27. Matt

    John,

    Ok, now to answer Romans 1. I’m not really sure what you are getting at here: “who had decided to not use their bodies.” because they surely had no problem using their bodies, it was “how” they were using them. Men and women were utilizing their bodies contrary to how God intended their use to be. As Jesus claimed, “Have you not read that [God] created them from the beginning [and] made them male and female,and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?(Matt. 19:4-5). God intended Adam to be with Eve, sure you may say, for multiplication and population; but of course, because this was God’s intended purpose for humanity. Man is not required to marry, but if he is to marry, it must be according to God’s purpose. ANYTHING outside of holy marriage is fornication, period. So, even if a man is living with a woman and “seems” in love, or happy; its wrong.
    I agree with you; people have sex for myriads of reasons, but unless Christ is number one, and the two are one in Christ (according to His intended purpose) then it is not love, but a deceived lust/desire.
    The warning to the newly Christian gentile converts (Rome) where homosexuality was rampant and even accepted by the government officials, was wrong and God gave those people up to their own reprobate minds. But as I stated, if an alcoholic wants to justify his actions, by stating, “I was born this way, with genetics making me an alcoholic, I can’t change.” He is denying the power of God, or the cross he is to bear in life. he is saying that Christ is not all sufficient. He is also saying that the sin nature I was born with, is acceptable and right.

    All of us were born with a sin nature, all. To conclude, God gave the people what wanted and what they “thought” was right. Proverbs 14:12, “There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.”

    Reply
  28. Matt

    Ok, last one. You said: “if you are given over to the spirit of christ then your life is filled with the fruit of the holy spirit……yes or no?”

    I don’t want to split hairs here (as I would say one needs to submit and surrender to Christ, to be filled with the Holy Spirit and that means denial of self, denial of everything, and Him first, Luke 14:25-35), but to answer your question as you specifically asked.
    It seems no. It is evident that Paul is speaking to people who know Jesus and have claimed to be followers, but do not have the fruit of the Spirit; they argue, backbite, commit fornication, get drunk, and revert back to their old lifestyles, claiming free grace (antinomianism).

    You also asked,”the fruit of the spirit of christ is different from that of powers and principalities, the things of the flesh, and the world, because they are of a different spirit…. yes or no?”

    Answer: Surely the flesh is separate from the dark powers and principalities of this world (satanic). There needs to be a distinction between my own selfish, self-centered passions and lusts, then with what the devil really is doing. As well, the Holy Spirit is the steam in the engine (so to speak), He is not to go “toot, toot.” Therefore, the only way one knows that he/she is living by the Spirit is by submitting and surrendering to Christ, living in obedience to Him. Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15). There must be a denial of the flesh, a denial of self, a denial of what “we” think is right. I used to think I could get drunk and be filled with the Spirit, but that was only a self lie, a self justification, to promote my lifestyle. Deep down, I knew what I was doing was not right. And if I would not do something holding Jesus’ hand, then I know its wrong; meaning, (and here’s the key) whatever we do, would we do it if we were holding Jesus’ hand because if the Holy Spirit dwells within us, then we already are. Do I think Jesus would condone and smile at me and my wife, watching us being sexually intimate; yes I do because He gave me my wife and I always thank Him for a woman in love with Him. The reason I feel so re-assured is because His Word is thorough, continual, and immutable, but since Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, then if He wants to changes the Sabbath rules, he can, but the commandments as is, remain. We still live by the ten unconditional, but know that Christ has fulfilled the remaining 613 deeds attached.

    Reply
  29. john r

    the three commandments of love are greater than the ten because the three are about conviction of the heart. without lifting ones hand a believer can murder his brother in his heart. without even touching another woman a man can carry on a adulterous relationship with her in his heart.

    to follow anything other than the three assumes love. but assuming love is not being led by it.

    there are a million reasons to obey a law and none of them has to do with love.

    again 1cor13 says anything without love is nothing and gains nothing.

    surely every marriage in christ is about godlove. why would gay believers who marry not have the same. what does differences of physicalities have to do about spirit. physicality account for nothing.

    Matthew 3:9
    And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

    to say that thru regulations about physicalities is how we have a relationship to god, denies the one with the spirit that lives within us, it denies the importance of being led by godlove, and attempts to ressurrect the old covenant as in deut 28. what is there new about that. the old covenant has long since passed away.

    Reply
  30. john r

    [God] created them from the beginning [and] made them male and female,

    there is no word ” only” in genesis and matthew 19. you are adding your own stroke, in spite of jesus’s words on the importance of each stroke. and hearing the word about marrying a woman is not about physicalities at birth because there have been those who were born without the equipment to have intercourse who still married.

    Reply
  31. john r

    i am quoting you.

    Accordingly, your use of the 2nd Commandment is eisegesis (taking Scripture out of context). Assuredly, God is love, and God is just; God must punish those who accept Him, and acknowledge that His only Son bore the full penalty of sin and was the propitiation of God’s wrath on man, for that sin, and continue to habitually disregard the warnings He has given. The warning in Romans 1 declares that God gave those men and women up (gave them up to their reprobate minds) who had decided to not use their bodies according to the purpose that He created them, which was sexually immoral. Paul was certainly not talking about God’s love, otherwise the covenant Jews had a higher “leg to stand on” than the gentile because God would have loved them more. However, Paul’s argument comes to a divided church.

    Reply
  32. john r

    in gal5 paul is talking about more that just the act. he is talking about the same thing he spoke about in romans, what one has given themselves over to. what they have said in their heart is good and what they chose to lead their lives. this is different from those say kindness is good and it is what i want to be led by and yet commit an unkind act.

    romans7:14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

    21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
    So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

    Reply
  33. john r

    my personnal witness of those who are given over to murder, thievery, and adultery saying that these are good and have chosen be led by them……..their lives have been, full of darkness and have been devoid of the fruit of the spirit compared to those who have not.

    this is not true of gay believers compared to heterosexual believers. their lives and marriages are filled in the same way. where the spirit rests is what is of god.

    Reply
  34. Matt

    John,

    I think we agree that those “two” sum up all the Law and the prophets, as Jesus stated, and they are the “greatest,” but they do not nullify the commandments. Jesus did not come to “abolish” the Law, but to fulfill it.

    I would have to disagree with this statement: “there are a million reasons to obey a law and none of them has to do with love.” I have already quoted Jesus declaring that “if” you love Him then you will obey the commandments, that are of Him (Col. 1). All things were made by Him, for Him, and through Him. Even Paul stated, the Law id not evil or bad, it is actually holy and righteous. Our love for Christ however, causes us to love God’s holy Law (not the conditional commands, the unconditional). All Christians are not held under the unconditional commandments, but live by them because we love Christ. It is through our love that we are able to obey them.
    I do agree that loving our neighbor and Him fulfills the other eight, but it also doesn’t negate those eight. In the same sense, we live free from the conditional commands set forth via Moses, but free grace does not mean that we have the freedom to sin, or live contrary to how God intended. Therefore, if the Law is holy, righteous, and good (Rom. 6-7), then it still speaks to my heart and convicts, as it is supposed to do, but by grace through faith alone, am I saved.
    So, to conclude: to love Christ, is to obey His commandments. Unless of course, you are thinking that Christ did not give the ten commandments or that He abolished and annihilated them? Then we have a discussion…

    Reply
  35. john r

    my point is to be led by what is greater………….which is the spirit that lives in each believer which about godlove.

    Reply
  36. john r

    consider the changes of understanding of the 2nd commandment led by godlove. in the time of moses, ones neighbor were those of ones tribe. jesus elevated it to everyone who treats you well. today one’s neighbor is everyone else.

    Reply
  37. john r

    look at the same about slavery. in lev god says slavery is good. but under the new covenant slavery is an intolerable evil because its violation of the 2nd commmandment.

    i still dont understand. why would believers chose to led by the law when, they now live under spirit(grace)and even if they obey the law they receive no salvation. why be led by what the spirit created when you can be led by the spirit itself.

    scripture says the law has been weakened and is but a shadow. why be led a shadow when you can be led directly by the light.

    Reply
  38. Matt

    John,

    I fully understand, that all Christians should be lead by the Holy Spirit and should love one another accordingly, and I fully agree. Paul’s point; however, was that Christians in Rome, Galatia, and Corinth were not living in submission to Christ (the Master), nor lead by the Holy Spirit, nor manifesting a changed lifestyle. therefore, they were not living by the Spirit, or manifested the fruit of Spirit (i.e. self-control, faithfulness).
    There is a difference in loving God and obeying God, and Jesus reminded people of the cost and price to follow Him. Love is awesome and love does cover a multitude of sins, but love does not save; only submission to Christ by denial of self and everything else, will produce a true love because nothing else is before Him.

    The Greater is Christ, He alone is the One who gave His life, the Spirit is given to dwell with those (only) who submit and surrender to Him. The Spirit cannot be greater than Christ, since the trinity is God in three person, equal in nature, but submissive in duties. Just as Jesus was submissive to the father, the Spirit is submissive to Christ, but that does not take away from any of their nature or attributes.

    Reply
  39. john r

    “Love is awesome and love does cover a multitude of sins, but love does not save; only submission to Christ by denial of self and everything else, will produce a true love because nothing else is before Him.”

    2cor7:7-10 says it is godly sorrow that leads us to repentance that leads to salvation. anything that is godly is about godlove.

    again 1cor13 anything that is without love is nothing and gains nothing…………obedience to the law, confession, even repentance without love they are nothing.

    yes if you love me you love you will obey……., but because one obeys a law does not mean they are doing it out of the love of christ. there are other reasons….pride, fear of retribution,etc.

    no one comes to the father accept thru the son no one comes to the son unless the father draws him.

    if god is love, what is there of god that is without love.

    what can be done without christ that can be love?

    “without me you can do nothing.”

    if you are without me you are without my love. if it is without my love it is nothing and gains nothing.

    there is no understanding of sin unless that understanding is of the love of first and second commandment…..the 2 together lived thru the love of the third.

    Reply
  40. john r

    10 Hear the word of the LORD,
    you rulers of Sodom;
    listen to the law of our God,
    you people of Gomorrah!

    11 “The multitude of your sacrifices—
    what are they to me?” says the LORD.
    “I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
    of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
    I have no pleasure
    in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

    12 When you come to appear before me,
    who has asked this of you,
    this trampling of my courts?

    13 Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
    Your incense is detestable to me.
    New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
    I cannot bear your evil assemblies.

    14 Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts
    my soul hates.
    They have become a burden to me;
    I am weary of bearing them.

    15 When you spread out your hands in prayer,
    I will hide my eyes from you;
    even if you offer many prayers,
    I will not listen.
    Your hands are full of blood;

    16 wash and make yourselves clean.
    Take your evil deeds
    out of my sight!
    Stop doing wrong,

    17 learn to do right!
    Seek justice,
    encourage the oppressed. [a]
    Defend the cause of the fatherless,
    plead the case of the widow.

    18 “Come now, let us reason together,”
    says the LORD.
    “Though your sins are like scarlet,
    they shall be as white as snow;
    though they are red as crimson,
    they shall be like wool.

    they were guilty of violation of the 2nd commandment, which in comparison to obedience of regulation meant nothing. that was under the old covenant where as in deut 28 they had a relationship to god thru regulation. how much more is that true under the new, where relationship thru christ replaces the one of regulation.

    col1:15 christ is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
    21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[f] your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

    Reply
  41. john r

    “Christians in Rome, Galatia, and Corinth were not living in submission to Christ (the Master), nor lead by the Holy Spirit, nor manifesting a changed lifestyle.”

    any submission to christ is embracing the 2nd commandment. every embracing the first is embracing the 2nd. you cannot seperate them because they are all of the same spirit.

    yet you are still unable to explain how the essence being homosexual violates anything other than your undwerstanding of regulation. you are still unable to explain how it comes against the love of the 2nd commandment and the fruits of the spirit of christ. if it comes against christ then it should definitely come against his fruits. murder, thievery, and adultery obviously does, why should homosexuality be any different?

    Reply
  42. Matt

    John,

    I think this has come to a head here: I have to be completely honest; your “argument” is baseless, mostly irrelevant, and out of context (Biblically speaking).

    I’m happy you recited Col. 1:21, “Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior,” because that was my point, period. Christians, or at least people who claim to be, cannot live contrary to God’s intended purpose and will, and (falsely) “believe” they are filled with the Holy Spirit. God did not allow homosexuality, fornication, or idolatry in the OT, and Jesus, and the Holy Spirit (co-author of NT) do not condone it in the NT. They are One, not separate. The message is the Word (Jesus Christ, Jn 1:1). The Word is immutable.

    I’m not sure why you are hung up on the second commandment, as if that saves you. The second commandment is applied to a believer’s life, “after” he/she adheres to the Gospel. I think you have the Gospel confused with a one time deal, as if the Gospel only applies to salvation and not life, and glorification. We live the Gospel, it is not ours, but belongs to Christ. The Gospel is not a thing.
    The Holy Spirit warned “believers” that if they wanted to remain in their old lifestyles, then they would have no place in the kingdom (via Paul, Gal. 5:19-21). Thats the end of the story.
    I’m really confused by an entire argument basing salvation on love. Love is a by-product, not salvation. I only “know” love “because” He illuminated me, of love. This whole “godlove” theory is un-Biblical. I don’t mean to sound condescending, but out of all love and faithfulness to the One who called me, if you’re in a homosexual relationship now, God may give you up to your reprobate mind, take that as a warning, and one out of love. God disciplines through love, but His loving discipline may include suffering and severe conviction. If He didn’t love you, then He wouldn’t have warned us to abolish the old habits of sexual immorality, drunkenness, idolatry. Homosexuality is idolatry; in that it worships the created more than the Creator, that is what Paul says in Rom. 1.
    I’m sorry, but if you continue with the “godlove” theory, I really have no idea what you are talking about and would love to see the Biblical texts (in context) where you exegetically pulled it from. I have based my argument on textual context (Gal. 5:16-24; 1 Cor. 6; and Rom. 1), and even Hermeneutically. I’m not sure what else you would like me to answer, other than you are justified in love? Is that what you are seeking? I’m willing to listen, but the argument must be contextual and relevant.

    Reply
  43. john r

    god is love, everything that is of god is love.

    1 John 4:8
    Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

    1john4:16
    And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

    the third commandment”love one another as i have loved”

    when we love in christ, thru grace, it is not our love but his love thru us.

    John 15:5
    “I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

    Reply
  44. john r

    john 6:53Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Reply
  45. john r

    I’m not sure why you are hung up on the second commandment, as if that saves you.

    it does save me.

    2cor7:10Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done.

    living the love of christ of my neighbor and myself thru me, avails me to godly sorrow and repentence(that leaves no regret) that lead me to the salvation.

    it was knowing christ’s love that saved me. it is living that love that allows me to daily live that salvation, christ loving(love one another as i have loved you) myself and my neighbor.

    Reply
  46. Scott Fillmer

    @john

    I am not sure what you point is to keep repeating the same thing over and over again, we all know “God is love” verses. Just because a verse in the bible, taken out of context, says “God is love” means that homosexuality are acceptable to God. In making all these comments you have actually proved my post to be correct, as much as my original point in the post when I said the other person justified a homosexual lifestyle by saying we eat pork. Your argument basically comes down to this.

    After reading all of your comments, and trying understand what you context is between God, love, and homosexuality, I can only conclude that your proposition to be:

    God is love
    Homosexuality is a form of love
    Therefore homosexuality is not a sin.

    This argument, or any variation of this argument is categorically incorrect, inaccurate, and does not follow the context of the bible taken as a whole, especially when you are not referring to a proper form of love as taken from a contextual reading of scripture. You are trying to justify a sin, it is as simple as that. I could do the same thing for any number of sins that aren’t homosexuality, but in the end, it is simply justification for something God says he hates (not loves).

    You can continue to quote scripture out of context to justify your argument, I don’t mind the conversation, I just don’t see the point as you haven’t made your point any more understandable not than it was in the beginning?

    Reply
  47. Matt

    John,

    That was what I thought you were alluding to; however, love is not what saved us. To understand how and why we are justified, one needs to understand the efficacious work of Christ (this means His efficiency). Christians are not justified by Christ on the cross (solely). By Christ taking the penalty of sin, upon Himself, becoming sin, when he knew no sin, mankind was reconciled back into the “Adamic” state (when man was first made in God’s image and likeness). This reconciliation comes by faith alone, through Christ’s work and atonement, but it was a “judicial” act, that you and I (who believe) are allowed to come back into the presence of God. However, it was though Christ’s obedience in fulfilling the Law and obedience and humility even to the cross, that we are justified. One MUST look upon his/her sin, at the cross, and believe to be saved. It is NOT by love. I certainly love Christ for what He did, but I revere Him and respect Him because He is LORD and Master of my life. This is why Paul and Peter always start their letter, “I, ‘insert name’ am a BOND-SERVANT of Christ.”
    A bond-servant cannot be greater than his master. If the Master became sin and recognized that mankind must look upon sin to be saved; what makes you believe that merely love will save you?? What you are believing is an old heretical theological view called antinomianism (you need to google that). Scott is correct, you are in a cyclical argument that never addresses your sin; we ALL need to address our lifestyle and our sin, “turn” to become more like Him, that is the goal. However, it is not the knowledge of the love that God had, that saves me, it is the Holy Spirit’s illuminating power that convicts me of sin (Jn 14), showing me that I am a sinner and in need of grace. I deserve justice (the penalty of my sin), but God gave me grace (what I did not deserve) because of faith alone, in His Son (my Savior, Lord, and Master). Is that clear, or do I have to explain this concept again?

    His servant,
    Matt

    Reply
  48. john r

    “God is love
    Homosexuality is a form of love
    Therefore homosexuality is not a sin.”

    god is love

    the love of god is in heterosexual believers in the same way his love is in heterosexual believers

    where the spirit rests is what is of god.

    therefore if being heterosexual is not a sin, neither is being homosexual

    scripture doesnt declare it a sin, but affirms it is of god thru its words about love, faith, spirit, and fruit of the spirt.

    “what makes you believe that merely love will save you?”

    how can you seperate anything that is christ from the love that is of christ, who is god, who is love? if christ is love anything that is of him is love. any goodness that comes from heaven is love…….such as ones faith.

    1cor13:if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.

    Reply
  49. Scott Fillmer

    @john

    Pretty much no new ground covered here, except, this statement just baffles me, seriously, baffles me.

    “scripture doesnt declare it [homosexuality] a sin, but affirms it [homosexuality] is of god thru its words about love, faith, spirit, and fruit of the spirt.”

    It is the second half of that statement that is so unfounded in scripture it amazes me you continue to use that argument. Scripture AFFIRMS homosexuality is of God? That gap is so wide I am not sure there is a (human) bridge that could ever cross it. I am sorry but you have gone so far down the line of looking at justifying sin that you are completely blinded by your own opinion of what you perceive to be “affirming of God?”

    This is not new ground at all, but there is not one place in scripture that speaks about homosexuality in a positive manner. When the bible speaks specifically about homosexuality (not this misunderstanding you seem to have about the love of God), actually mentions homosexuality specifically, calls it by name or action, it is said in a negative light.

    Again, I’m sorry, but you are not going to convince me (or I would say anyone who takes a contextual look at scripture) that homosexuality is a positive thing that comes out of the love of God. Find one place in scripture that specifically speaks directly about homosexuality in a positive manner, specially, by name? It doesn’t. So saying it comes from God is just not a rational response to scripture. I appreciate your position, scripture just does not back it up.

    Reply
  50. john r

    you say romans 1 is about homosexuality but you wont explain how the words say it is about homosexuality. i have no interest in changing your mind. everyone is entitled to their own opinion without recrimination. but whether that is what scripture says by what is written is another matter. you will not explain your rendition of romans1 word by word, phrase by phrase.

    Reply
  51. john r

    a question was asked “what are the scriptures that affirm homosexuality?”

    these were the responses:

    1.feetxxxl Says:
    August 22nd, 2010 at 8:42 am
    that the essence of the new covenant is the three commandments of love. that god loved us first and thru grace we believers in turn love him back with the same love. that we are to love ourselves and our neighbor(who is every body else) in the same way that christ love us.

    romans and galatians…. that the 2nd commmandment is the summation of all, all new covenant law. that under the new covenant we no longer live under
    the law as in deut 28, but grace, and now the law “which is a shadow of things to come not the realities themselves” is to make believers “conscious” of NOT loving “their neighbor as themselves”. and because being gay does not come against the love of the 2nd commandment(love neighbor)(knowing we “cannot love god if we are not loving our neighbor also”) it is not a sin.

    mark “that which is not against us is for us”

    and just because certain things are not written specifically in scripture does not mean they are against god.

    1cor13 anything without love is nothing and gains nothing…………obedience, faith,belief, etc

    2.The Ex-Party Girl For Jesus Says:
    August 22nd, 2010 at 10:27 am
    “…nor homosexuals…. will enter the Kingdom of God”
    References :

    3.Laura Says:
    August 22nd, 2010 at 10:48 am
    You mean to be free from Homosexuality?

    EDIT:

    There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
    1 Corinthians 10:13
    References :

    4.Christy Says:
    August 22nd, 2010 at 11:11 am
    God condemns homosexuality so there are not any motivational quotes..
    References :

    5.OOPS [2] Says:
    August 22nd, 2010 at 11:31 am
    Lev. 20:13,
    “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them”

    A great comfort as is the story of Sodom and Gomorrah
    References :

    6.The Black Rabbit of Inlé Says:
    August 22nd, 2010 at 11:52 am
    2 Samuel 6:1
    David again brought together out of Israel chosen men, thirty thousand in all.

    1 Chronicles 10:4
    Saul said to his armor-bearer, “Draw your sword and run me through, or these uncircumcised fellows will come and abuse me.” But his armor-bearer was terrified and would not do it; so Saul took his own sword and fell on it.
    References :

    Reply
  52. Pingback: Are There Different Degrees of Sin? The Greater Sin of John 19:11 | Scott Fillmer

  53. Daniel p

    Sorry John but you are demon filled and without reason.

    God said he changes not. God says he is the same forever, I think you know you are heading to he’ll but want a way out and it’s simple just turn from your sin.
    I am not like those other two who seem to beat around the bush, you are in a demon filled church are bound by evil spirits and will most likely burn in he.
    You could say I should judge myself first and I have, I’m just being a straight shooter with you. Now as for the other two please do remember not to toss pearls to swine, you two have a lot of wisdom no need to waste it. Also try and remember that Jesus was not a sissy and went and cleared out the house of the lord. Jesus said many will say lord lord did I not cast out demons in your name and Jesus will reply I never knew you. This man John has so many demons inside him there’s no reasoning with him. I’m sure he will say something stupid about my post but I don’t care. John your time is short I think you know your hell bound at the moment, just ask Jesus to come into your heart and forgive your sins and set you free and he will.

    Reply
  54. Torie

    I do not know that much about God our father…but i do know that Homosexuality is wrong in gods eyes. I very much believe John’s statements, although i do not understand some of them…but i am only 13 so…but i do believe that homosexuality is wrong however you want to put or say it,it is still wrong.

    Reply

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